<div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33)">> What's the actual problem with including ntpviz in </span><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33)">the standard install</span> <br><div><br></div><div>Anything that triggers a surprise dependency to load libx, a font renderer, or a font pack onto a ssh & text console -only host gets a veto from me.</div><div><br></div><div>..m</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 2:14 PM Eric S. Raymond <<a href="mailto:esr@thyrsus.com">esr@thyrsus.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hal Murray <<a href="mailto:hmurray@megapathdsl.net" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">hmurray@megapathdsl.net</a>>:<br class="gmail_msg">
> As long as they don't get installed, I don't think the ntp prefix is<br class="gmail_msg">
> important.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Nevertheless, I think we should maintain namespace discipline even for<br class="gmail_msg">
the uninstalled stuff. It's not always easy to predict what will *remain*<br class="gmail_msg">
uninstalled.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
>A hyphen after the ntp might make them easier to read.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
But harder to remember when you're typing. I actually thought about<br class="gmail_msg">
this pretty carefully before squeezing hyphens out of the program<br class="gmail_msg">
names at the time of the fork. I didn't do that casually.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
The problem is that there's no generative rule for where to hyphenate<br class="gmail_msg">
in names like these that is both intuitively correct and simple to<br class="gmail_msg">
apply on the fly. So if you use hyphens you're implicitly putting on<br class="gmail_msg">
users the cognitive burden of remembering semi-arbitrary locations.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
To illustrate the problem, consider the different ways ntpkeygen might<br class="gmail_msg">
be hyphenated:<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
ntpkeygen<br class="gmail_msg">
ntp-key-gen<br class="gmail_msg">
ntp-keygen<br class="gmail_msg">
ntpkey-gen<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Generally when you hyphenate a compound like that, you're expressing a<br class="gmail_msg">
judgment about which subset of parts are tightly bound to each other<br class="gmail_msg">
(and should be wordlike) vs. which subparts are more loosely coupled<br class="gmail_msg">
and deserve an intermediating hyphen. It's *hard* to form a simple<br class="gmail_msg">
generative rule for this, and harder to apply it consistently across<br class="gmail_msg">
multiple names. You get into fuzzy issues about what the semantic<br class="gmail_msg">
units are; effectively you have to commit to preferring one of<br class="gmail_msg">
multiple competing phrase parsings for the expansion of the name.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
So I just said "screw it" and ripped all the hyphens out. Simplest thing,<br class="gmail_msg">
and I think we should stick to it.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
> We need to figure out how to handle ntpviz and friends. I think it should<br class="gmail_msg">
> NOT be part of the standard install set. At a minimum, there should be an<br class="gmail_msg">
> easy way to skip it during install.<br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
I've forgotten. What's the actual problem with including ntpviz in<br class="gmail_msg">
the standard install?<br class="gmail_msg">
--<br class="gmail_msg">
<a href="<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/" rel="noreferrer" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">http://www.catb.org/~esr/</a>">Eric S. Raymond</a><br class="gmail_msg">
<br class="gmail_msg">
Please consider contributing to my Patreon page at <a href="https://www.patreon.com/esr" rel="noreferrer" class="gmail_msg" target="_blank">https://www.patreon.com/esr</a><br class="gmail_msg">
so I can keep the invisible wheels of the Internet turning. Give generously -<br class="gmail_msg">
the civilization you save might be your own.<br class="gmail_msg">
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</blockquote></div>